Maybe it is best to have a more open approach to editing the wiki. I've been undoing edits of people who have been deleting stuff for no valid reason, but I think perhaps it is for the best. Maybe we should just leave it up to their own devices and see if that gets them anywhere. If not, we need to have better inclusion/deletion regulations instead.
Maybe it is best to have a more open approach to editing the wiki. I've been undoing edits of people who have been deleting stuff for no valid reason, but I think perhaps it is for the best. Maybe we should just leave it up to their own devices and see if that gets them anywhere. If not, we need to have better inclusion/deletion regulations instead.
+
+
One anon mentions, perhaps we should strictly have it for obscure gems only. This would eliminate some of the most popular well known mainstream games every person already knows, since most of /v/'s hate is targeted towards anything mainstream.
I'm open to suggestions and feel free to knock down some of mine as well. [[User:Haipayazoo|Haipayazoo]] ([[User talk:Haipayazoo|talk]]) 06:35, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
I'm open to suggestions and feel free to knock down some of mine as well. [[User:Haipayazoo|Haipayazoo]] ([[User talk:Haipayazoo|talk]]) 06:35, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
Revision as of 06:39, 29 October 2013
Use this page to discuss design and content changes to the main page.
Wikia would rather we use Community Portal or Forums for talking about the wiki in general... but whatever.
Older Discussion
As this wiki gets on in years, this page gets uncomfortably big with old conversations. They've been moved to sub-pages.
I was adding some platforms to the "history of game machines" list, when I realized: it's not right to list smartphone platforms like Android and iOS as "handheld", as the word implies a portable system fully dedicated to games. So I relisted them as "mobile".--LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 09:45, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
Style harmonization
Is there an automated way to redo the tables? I want to make them all similar to the Dreamcast list: cover pic, title, genre, description. No screenshots or similar cruft (except for the PC page, where the year and store columns are useful). Redoing all that shit by hand would be a fuckton of work. -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 08:02, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
Vandalism problems
Some faggot seems to be adding a ton of BLANK LINES everywhere, is there a way to get rid of this shit? --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 09:17, March 23, 2013 (UTC)
And now there's another asshole constantly vandalizing the Ouya page. -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 04:46, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
The 'another asshole' has been sorted out. -- Mozai (talk)
Suggestion: split the PC section further
I think it'd make sense to separate the PC section further, as the "older games" page is getting really long. I'd suggest:
MS-DOS games
early Windows games (pre-95)
95 era (1995 to 2000)
XP era (2001 to 2006)
Longhorn era (2007 to 2011)
8 era (2012 to now)
I am a little unsure about the last one, though: a "modern Windows era", from 07 to now, would make sense, as no one is moving to Windows 8 anyway. But splitting that would help keep the pages reasonably short. What do you think? --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 03:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Well, I personally think it's a pretty good idea. 11 years is a pretty big bracket and it's pretty content-filled as well. If you want to do it, go right ahead. Otherwise, I'll do it myself tomorrow. I can vouch for you if nothing more. --Dejiko (talk) 07:46, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
Ideas for how to call the "Vista/7" era? Longhorn was Vista's codename, but people won't recognize it; I could call it Vista, but people hated that; and I could call it 7, but it didn't really start with it. Also, I think the troubleshooting section should get its own page.--LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 00:20, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
I don't think it'd hurt if you split it up even more, making both a "Vista era" and a "7 era", so they'd be ~3 years each, seeing how some major progress has been made at a fast rate the last few years when it comes to game engines, not to mention fact that almost half the current list is '07-'08 (what would then be the "Vista era"), and the other half is '09-'11 (which would be "7 era"). --Zgd (talk) 12:25, May 2, 2013 (UTC)
Done editing the main PC page. Does it look good? (In case anyone wants the image template, get it here). --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 09:27, May 3, 2013 (UTC)
Looks ballin. Sorry I couldn't help myself, I had some family matters come up, and had to stay offline for a few days. (I know that sounds like a hamfisted excuse, but in all honesty, I really DID want to get on, but I just couldn't.) --Dejiko (talk) 16:21, May 3, 2013 (UTC)
Looks great indeed, I'll take the liberty to upload the logos for the rest of them and adding to the pages. --Zgd (talk) 11:16, May 4, 2013 (UTC)
Late as fuck, but good job on that, Lyric. It's a whole lot better now.Jukse (talk) 11:26, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
PCs aren't tablets
I think it's goofy that PC games are mixed in with tablets and mobile devices on the front page. All the lists for Windows, Apple computers, Linux, etc should be grouped together as PC games. Mac computer games and Linux games should be added to the PC page as well because the only thing linked on the PC page is Windows games.
Also, all the Java mobile devices, Apple mobile devices, Android, etc should be in it's separate group with their own page as well. --Bobby1001 (talk) 8:05, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
That's exactly what "PC" came to mean: DOS & Windows. It's not strictly correct, but that's how it's been understood for a long time now. What else can we do, rename it "Wintel"? Anyway, that's what the PC page is for; Mac and Linux have their own pages and should not be mixed with the PC page. -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 07:15, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
Vandalism galore
There's too much vandalism going on. Some unregistered assholes are going around doing nothing but removing others' recommendations without justification. There's even a dolt trying to kill the Ouya page altogether. I must suggest a radical solution: only registered users can be allowed to edit anything. -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 00:53, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
I guess that would be great to prevent pointless edits and all, but I can already hear the deranged anon outcries just thinking about it. Jukse (talk) 19:37, July 25, 2013 (UTC)
With all the back and forth on the PS4 page (and I mean at least daily someone will go LEL NO GAMES LOOK AT ME I'M SO FUNNY) that's more than worth it. We gotta get this stuff under control. Parabox (talk) 12:32, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
We could use more dedicated moderators. It's irritating that I have to undo each edit individually when someone could just use rollback. I've been watching over a few of the sections for quite awhile and it feels really inactive. Hypoxium (talk) 19:48, July 29, 2013 (UTC)
Wikia has been poor at notifying me for pages on my watchlist. --Mozai (talk) 18:49, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
And now the fucker is vandalizing the front page!--LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 05:11, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
Hey asshat, what don't you understand about /v/ DOESN'T LIKE THE OUYA. NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THERE. If /v/ doesn't like the OUYA, then anyone with common sense would know that /v/ also doesn't recommend any of its games. Once again, it's not vandalism if /v/ doesn't actually recommend it. Kinda sad how this entire wiki has gone to shit by people like you. Get out you crying brony faggot. -Gaboya
You really don't get what this wiki is for, do you? See, when someone says: "Recommend me some good games for System XYZ plz kthx", the proper answer is: "These are some good games for System XYZ". Or the easy modo: send him here and he will find a list of good games for System XYZ. The wrong answer is: "No, System XYZ sux, have a list of games for System ABC instead!". Which is what you are trying to do. -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 06:40, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
Are you seriously that fucking delusional that you think everybody on /v/ shares the exact same opinion and that anybody thinking otherwise is from Reddit? That's so fucking stupid. If you can't be open-minded you shouldn't even be contributing here. Hypoxium (talk) 06:43, August 6, 2013 (UTC)
"If you can't be open-minded you shouldn't even be contributing here" - spoken like a true Redditor. top fucking lellers, no surprises that this wiki is dead and nobody ever links it or recommends it. oh and look at the front page "/v/'s biggest contributor is Anonymous," - except when the circlejerk doesn't approve then the only contributors are people who agree with the Reddit status quo. top fucking lel -``anonymous
Never gone to Reddit, don't give a fuck. The wiki looks like shit when nobody does anything to help, there are sections that haven't been updated in ages, and it's not because of Reddit. If you think a game or something is shit then bring it up on a discussion page so that other people from /v/ can agree on how garbage it is. That's how it should work here. Hypoxium (talk) 17:43, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
It's because of faggots like you that /v/ is such a cancer itself. Funny enough, people on /v/ DO link to this page. When some asks "Where can I find good games for this console?" there are people who direct them towards this site. Take your autism back to /b/ and shoot yourself. 68.109.79.102 03:13, August 30, 2013 (UTC)
Windows 8 surface?
Can we get a list for this monster? it's like android with both less and more games. -- 82.41.250.186
Maybe a new page but mostly a copy/paste, with slight updates, of pc xbox 360 and android as those seem to be the games the surface supports at random. Truth be told it's a fairly terrible machine but people seem to like it. Not sure if the windows phone is the same or simular in the game running field. I know oh so little about the games actually on the damn thing i was hoping someone with more knowlegde could slap one together. The whole wikia needs lots of these kind of pages fixed up anyway, consoles/platforms with little to no date other than an entry and a smigin of info.
Should that be a subsection of PC/Windows 8, or a separate page? If you feel you're an expert, this is a wiki so you know what to do. Don't forget to trawl old /v/ threads, or poll /v/ directly for your data. --Mozai (talk) 13:04, October 16, 2013 (UTC)
Why do we need a page for something that has the same games as everywhere else? Due to the severe overlap (It's just MS porting it's stuff) the page should be like the Ouya page and only list games native to the system. Nothing to list = no page. --Kitsuneae (talk) 21:04, October 16, 2013 (UTC)
Hmm, i guess you're right... Surface doesn't have any exclusive games i think (halo spartan assault might be one but that's it). Not sure if Surface even counts as a platform. maybe we could extend the android/windows 8 pc games pages to include windows phone/surface playability? oh wait, if we do that we may have to add 'other consoles' for all pages.. Maybe it's best to forget this idea then?
Well, we could mention on the Windows 8 page that windows is extended to "every device that runs windows that isn't a dedicated gaming console including tablets and phones." That might work.--Kitsuneae (talk) 05:10, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
That'd work, windows 8 is a mess isin't?
Well, a mess is what happens when you decide to have every single product you make running the same OS. Thanks Microsoft. As a side note, make sure you put replies at the very botom of the conversation. It makes things a lot easier to read. Also hit the button next to the "no" button to sign your posts. --Kitsuneae (talk) 00:19, October 22, 2013 (UTC)
Surface is just a device, Windows RT is the platform. And, to everyone's confusion, Surface Pro doesn't use that same platform, it runs regular Windows 8 instead. What the hell was Microsoft thinking? -- LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 22:13, October 23, 2013 (UTC)
Trolls...
It seems a troll has gotten loose and is now editing pages by deleting everything and putting stupid shit like "my dik" and such. Be on you toes.
-Magic Mushroom
Yes, we have had a couple of those lately. The easiest answer is to ignore any posts they make (if they make posts), fix what we can, and hope the admins put a "registered only" lock on the wiki so only registered users can edit/make things. This measure won't stop things 100%, but it prevents one guy from refreshing his IP, using TOR, or proxying to skirt bans or look like multiple people. In short, it makes life easier. --Kitsuneae (talk) 20:52, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
Don't be silly. Of course it is.
(We can't change the web address, so we're all stuck with it.) --Dejiko (talk) 23:55, October 27, 2013 (UTC)
To Anons about the Wiki
Anon, what would make this /V/'s wiki?
If you're looking for people from /V/ we already have them. I know I am on /V/, and so is Mozai, Dejiko, Lyric and most the other regular contributors. We're anons there just like everyone else.
Can the wiki get outdated? Yes. Opinions can change and some games don't age well. This can cause some edit wars, but threadlinks and screencaps clear things up fast. Proof is mostly helpful for removing stuff; people generaly don't complain about new games being added unless the games are clearly shit.
Can different threads have differing opinions? Yes. Different people are online at different times and have different opinions. This means that if the thread we were in didn't dispute that it's a good game, it will probably end up here even if the thread you were in had someone bitch about it in green text for 30 minutes. Not even /V/ always agrees on everything so some common consensus helps.
TL:DR: What you see here is made by people from /V/. It won't perfectly match every single thread on /V/ but matching /V/'s every thought perfectly isn't the point. The point is for people from /V/ to collect game reccomendations for fellow gamers. This is why it's called "/V/'s Reccomended Games Wiki".
Also, we're aware of the stupid link Reddit made to here. The admins of this wiki repeatedly asked for the link to be taken down but Reddit refused. The people from before the link went up are clearly 100% /V/. We haven't gotten new actual posters since the link went up, just a ton of shitposters screaming "reddit" and doing blanking. If anything it sounds to me like all the shitposting comes from reddit, but that's just my ten cents. --Kitsuneae (talk) 00:47, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
PS: to sign your post it's --~~~~
Purge the site and start fresh, other than that remove any reference to /v/. It is a shame what happened to this site, but theres no way to change the timeline unless you can generate 1.21 niggawatts somehow. - Ip address 67.176.172.143
You say it's a shame what happened but never said what happened. What makes this not a collection of game suggestions made by people who go on /v/?
Please bear in mind the truths about the possibility of outdating and that not every thread matches.--Kitsuneae (talk) 01:05, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
We could do that, but it's clear not all of /V/ is the problem so we're asking the people most likely to be causing this (ie: you). We'd like to understand what your problem with this wiki is and why you think this is.
If it's a problem with games listed, it's easy to fix: go on a talk page, hit /V/, and post screencaps and thread links showing opinions have changed. Vandalism doesn't help the wiki. If you're just bored, go play nethack. If you're just pissed off and want to rage, Go on ED. There's many answers once we know what th problem is. --Kitsuneae (talk) 01:52, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
You really don't get what this wiki is for, do you? See, when someone says: "Recommend me some good games for System XYZ plz kthx", the proper answer is: "These are some good games for System XYZ". Or the easy modo: send him here and he will find a list of good games for System XYZ. The wrong answer is: "No, System XYZ sux, have a list of games for System ABC instead!".
DO NOT FUCKING TELL US WHAT OUR RECOMMENDATIONS ARE OR HOW WE WILL RECOMMEND THEM. You really don't get what this wiki is for, do you? -- 67.176.172.143
I respect you Dejiko and I agree with what you said, but what has been said isn't anything new. It's clear that he's vandal as he does not adhere to the proper procedures of deletion, or editing for that matter. The fact that he called me a "faget" alreadypaints him as immature, biased, and one who lacks etiquette.
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THIS "ETIQUETTE FROM? DID YOU MISSPELL REDDIQUETTE? -- 67.176.172.143
Getting down to user specific, I understand leaving them to their devices for a day or two be be sure they're a vandal, but to me it looks like they are [a vandal] . They deleted Skyrim, The Last of Us, and Oblivion - all of these are massively popular games with serious critical acclaim that most people liked.
I'm not even going to respond to that, if you don't understand what is wrong with the above you are brain damaged. -- 67.176.172.143
The thread Screencap
The point of this wiki is that it's a collection of different lists about different consoles. If someone wants to just ask /V/ they can. It's easy mode for the very lazy and a hobby for the list obsessed.
The quote was from someone else. Even then, randomly shouting "fagget" and hurling insults is not mature. Since you asked where etiquette on the internet comes from, here's A page about itnernet etiquette.
So you're doing this because you deleted several games that have been sited as "good" repeatedly and didn't like things being reverted. OK, here's a V thread and a screencap on those games. Consensus? Last of Us is good (for story reasons), Oblivion is good all around and Skyrim has 1 like and 1 dislike. There you have it. --Kitsuneae (talk) 03:15, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
Now you might not believe me and accuse me of samefagging, but that would defeat the purpose. I didn't make those posts to show you, I made them to bait /v/ and it worked like a charm. It would have been no fun if I was baiting myself, after all half the fun is being as blatant as possible and still getting away with it. That last one is really important, do you see how quick /v/ is to identify anything with a hint of reddit? They even had a collage ready. Really if your positions and contributions mean so much to you then just let your /v/ delusions go, rename the wiki, and /v/ will have no reason to hate you anymore. It would not be a victory for /v/, they already lost the website years ago. /v/ just wants closure, they don't like seeing the raped zombie corpse of one of its former satellites lurching around reminding everybody that /v/ had a hand its its making. The other reason is that its just a fucking embarrassment, you are a hollow shell of what you once were, you sold out to reddit and the casual hordes and /v/ wants nothing more to do with you.
"you sold out to reddit and the casual hordes and /v/ wants nothing more to do with you."
When was this again? I don't remember any of us selling shit to or buying shit from reddit. --Dejiko (talk) 05:37, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
Your wiki panders to them you retard, are you only able to understand the literal meanings of phrases?
I suspect every "that wiki is now reddit's" comment on /v/ comes from a single troll, or a very small group of trolls.--LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 05:51, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
Okay sure, any time you "users" of the "/v/" wiki encounter an opinion or narrative that runs contrary to your imagined reality you instantly label it. >Skyrim is a popular game, see we made a thread to ask and cropped the first 5 responses. >Anyways it was given high ratings on metacritic and everybody I know likes it, so the editors must be vandals. >I will just ignore that the hyped died 3 days to a week after it came out and then was trashed by /v/ constantly. I will ignore that the only threads about skyrim from that point on were trashing the graphics, or the engine, or were discussing and posting pictures of waifu and sex mods. >Oh no, they are calling us reddit wiki because of a link and infestation, and the games list aligns with casual garbage reddit eats up. >I know! >they are nothing but trolls! >yeah its not us, its /v/!
You guys are a fucking joke, its actually sad because this is all you have, you have some personal investment in the idea that you operate a wiki of good games and that /v/ agrees with you. This thing started as a cream of the crop list of patrician games, the one user in the talk page that was going batshit insane about the content and games they contributed, well good job. What you have done is watered the games list down, you didn't contribute, unless you consider lowering quality standards and introducing casual shit contributing. If you do not want to lose all your precious data (this is not a threat, but there are only 2 options, data purge start from scratch to regain the trust of /v/, or rename to reddit, /vg/ or anything you fucking want, it's your goddamn site not /v/'s you made that very clear today.)you have meticulously added for your own personal use then please stop claiming that the site is full of content from /v/. This is not even a wiki anymore, you locked everything because you don't like /v/'s taste. Its too patrician for you and it hurts your feelings when your favorite popular lowest common denominator games get shit on and removed by /v/. Goodnight, I will not be back.
"Cream of the crop", you say... but opinions are a very tricky thing. Just one example in each end: P.N.03 had some terrible reviews, but I think it's one of the best action games ever, while Final Fantasy X got stellar scores, and I gave up that piece of shit after a couple dozen hours of wondering when the damn story will start making any fucking sense. What can you do about this kind of thing? --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 07:30, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
You are missing the entire point. This is /v/'s recommended games. We are not frustrated at the least of deletion of games. How the hell can we consider you seriously if you guys come off as trolls? If we just let any /v/irgin edit what he wants then there is going to be a fucking nonstop edit war. If you guys want something deleted then just fucking say so. We have a process of deletion that we've been telling you guys a long time ago which you all seem to ignore completely. I don't give the biggest shits about what you guys delete or not. Battlefield 3? Good! I don't even like the game. Skyrim? I don't care, Morrowind is better anyways. Plants Vs. Zombies 2? Casual shit that I wouldn't mind seeing deleted. What I do care is you guys coming in and doing massive edits of removals without any proof of consensus. What you see as editing we see as a violation of our deletion regulations and thus we have every right to think we are being vandalized. So there aren't two options there are three, "actually contribute something." If you actually MAKE a contribution you will actually be doing this for the betterment of /v/, so that we can finally have a wiki more closer to /v/'s taste. That being said though, I think it's rather ironic you say we are a shell of our former selves. I'm a /v/irgin who regularly posts on /v/ as anonymous, but I've came to the conclusion that /v/ is a shell of it's former self and has been for quite some time. All it is now is a bunch of angry shitposters and morons with only garbage, often non-vidya related, threads. Only ever so often there are actual "mature" intellectuals with good threads in an "ocean" of shit. It's the reason why things like /vg/ and /vr/ have been created, because they are so fucking divisive and irate. Speaking of which, isn't /vg/ and /vr/ an extension of /v/ and thus part of /v/ itself? I don't quite understand how changing it to /vg/ would make it any better considering they're the same people. /vr/ thinks we're a pretty cool wiki and they actually thanked us for the work we have done (to be fair, it was mainly because of obscure gems) and they're the most mature people I've ever met on 4chan, and they're from /v/.
Bottom line. Contribute to make /v/'s recommended games a great wiki, instead of being the cancer that's trying to kill it, which is an alternative doomed to failure.
>Goodnight, I will not be back.
That's fine. If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem. You will most certainly not be missed.
But the petty little namecaller has brought up a good point: even though we haven't sold out to [choose one: reddit, 9gag, SA, YouTube, Ubisoft, other], how do we prove that the recommendations come from /v/ and not just being pulled out of someone's ass? Even if we shut out this wiki so only people who are coming from /v/ can get here: /v/ isn't a hivemind, it's an unruly mob, and wiki writers are single voices in that mob. One single voice might say "Skyrim is grate" and another single voice will say "no you faggit" and how can we tell if there's a majority who like game X ? What happens in a 50/50 split, and we get bipartisan fights breaking out like the dog's breakfast that is American politics with Demokrims and Skypublicans ? Maybe we can't, and we must accept that /v/ is as cancerous as other boards claim, and the idea of a persistent "recommendations sticky" is a pipe dream. (this_is_why_we_cant_have_nice_things.jpg) I'm not willing to give up yet, but I don't know of a solution. --Mozai (talk) 14:34, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
Does it really matter? I think the wiki was doing pretty fine until the vandals showed up. Maybe it evolved into something that's not purely /v/, but actually better, something useful to other chans and forums. --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 19:03, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
"something not purely /v/, but actually better"
Then the wiki's stated mission has changed. If so, we shouldn't call this wiki "recommendations from /v/", but use a new branding. OR, we find a way to make sure we adhere to the original purpose of this wiki. I don't feel we've lost our way as much as the "burn it all down" saboteurs, but I worry there is still a molehill under their mountain. --Mozai (talk) 19:37, October 28, 2013 (UTC)
Ouya
What the fuck happened? Not only the page was deleted, the history is gone! --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 03:56, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
History vanishes when a page/article is deleted. Isn't Ouya just Android in quirky hardware, anyways? --Mozai (talk) 04:21, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
The Ouya is essentially Android in console format so recommending games on Android devices would be recommending games on Ouya and vice-versa (with an exception of a few). In all honesty, while I don't really like the fact that the Ouya page was deleted, despite it being a mediocre console, it would just make sense to link people to the Android page for those who do have the Ouya. Haipayazoo (talk) 04:38, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
It does have a handful of exclusives, though.[1][2] --LYRIC-Stormwatch (talk) 04:45, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
Then I guess we'll just have to put it on the Android page as "Ouya exclusives" for people who were unfortunate enough to buy one. Haipayazoo (talk) 06:03, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
Finding a better solution for all
I've been noticing our wiki has been recently been posted on a number of threads lately, mostly /vr/, and some have been "ok" with the wiki while others think we're still Redditors in disguise. One of the anons mentioned a purge. It's not a horrible idea than it sounds. We could have a back up of the pages and then start a fresh. We can recommend the more obvious ones and the great gems and leave the rest to other /v/irgins and what not.
Maybe it is best to have a more open approach to editing the wiki. I've been undoing edits of people who have been deleting stuff for no valid reason, but I think perhaps it is for the best. Maybe we should just leave it up to their own devices and see if that gets them anywhere. If not, we need to have better inclusion/deletion regulations instead.
One anon mentions, perhaps we should strictly have it for obscure gems only. This would eliminate some of the most popular well known mainstream games every person already knows, since most of /v/'s hate is targeted towards anything mainstream.
I'm open to suggestions and feel free to knock down some of mine as well. Haipayazoo (talk) 06:35, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
